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AP versus IB…

 

The single largest point of contention many parents have with being redistricted into South Lakes is the difference between the IB program at South Lakes High School and the AP programs offered by all of the high schools that are slated to lose students in the proposed redistricting.

First, everyone involved should learn the difference between an IB Diploma Candidate and an IB Student. An IB Diploma Candidate takes 6 subject exams, an additional course called "Theory of Knowledge", and completes an extended essay for a total of 8 assessments. An IB student is any student who takes at least one IB class.

There is no question that IB Diploma Programme is rigorous and challenging for those who undertake the IB Diploma program, but only about 5-13% of students in FCPS IB schools earn it–what about the other 87-95%?

IB is usually offered as a magnet program throughout the United States.

We believe that if the current redistricting is adopted as recommended
We will become the first group ever forced to attend an IB school in the U.S.

Statistical data indicates an exodus from South Lakes coincides with the implementation of the IB program at South Lakes.

The following information has been obtained through the IB website www.ibo.org and the Fairfax County Public Schools website www.fcps.edu/about/specpro.htm and several college websites.

What is IB?

International Baccalaureate (IB) is an international educational program of study that is currently offered in 2,210 schools in 125 countries. As of May 2007, less than 600 US schools offered IB.

According to the FCPS website:

”The IB program is offered at Annandale, Edison, Lee, Marshall, Mount Vernon, South Lakes, and Stuart High Schools and Robinson Secondary School. The IB program is open to all students, and any student enrolled in an IB course is required to take the end-of-course examination. IB courses are recognized for college credit by many universities in the United States.”

\What is AP?

AP stands for Advanced Placement. 

From the FCPS website:

“The Advanced Placement (AP) program provides rigorous academic college preparatory coursework in the major subject fields. Courses are offered in English, social studies, science, foreign languages, math, and fine arts… The AP program is offered at Centreville, Chantilly, Fairfax, Falls Church, Herndon, Langley, Madison, McLean, Oakton, West Potomac, West Springfield, Westfield, and Woodson High Schools and at Hayfield, Lake Braddock, and South County Secondary Schools. AP courses are recognized for college credit by many universities in the United States and abroad.”

College Credit

Both IB and AP programs are designed to be advanced programs of study with the possibility of providing college credits for those completing the courses and successfully testing in these subjects.

AP – If they score well on the end-of-course exam, any AP student can receive college credit and/or advanced placement in one or more of 38 different courses. There is no upper limit. - http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/courses/teachers_corner/index.html

IB – There are two types of IB courses, High-level (HL) and Standard or Subsidiary level (SL). HL courses generally last two years; SL courses generally last one year. IB regulations limit the number of Higher Level courses for IB Diploma candidates to just 4.  Non-Diploma students may also take these courses. However, most IB exams taken in Fairfax County are for standard level courses and these generally DO NOT qualify for college credit at the top Virginia schools. See Leading Colleges' Transfer Policies for Standard Level IB Course 

Science: Since HL IB courses span two years prior to testing, this limits the number of HL science exams a student may take. In addition, it is interesting to note that in teh 2006-2007 school year, not a single student anywhere in FCPS, NOT ONE, earned the top score of "7" on any high level science exam–not in physics, chemistry or biology–and exactly ONE student earned a "7" in high level math.
AP students can select as many AP science courses as they want, testing for them each year toward college credits.

Again, IB appears to be much more limited than AP in offering students the ability to obtain college level credits which is a major point of having these advance study programs to begin with.  As parents, we will face huge college costs for our kids. Don’t we want to save as much as possible with the most advantageous college credit program?

Problems with IB

From the IB Implementation Manual:

On successful introduction of an IB program
“the schools that progress the most smoothly and successfully through the implementation procedures of the DP are those that have fully informed their various communities from the beginning. By being an integral part of the decision-making processes and having a sense of being closely involved from the beginning with this major school development, the introduction of the DP should be welcomed by the whole school community and receive the full support of the school board, staff, parents and students.”

On the importance of the full IB Diploma program
“all schools must be unequivocally committed to teaching the full diploma program and must recognize that certificate (SL) courses have secondary importance..”

“it must be unquestionably shown that any certificate courses they may be intending to offer are subordinate to their diploma program and will be specifically for students who are not intellectually or academically able to undertake the full diploma.”

What this means in operating an IB High School

The master schedule MUST satisfy the needs of the IB Program before determining which other courses may be offered.

In other words, the IB required courses limit the available electives in the school.

By contract with the IB organization, higher level IB classes must be offered to interested Diploma candidates, regardless of student enrollment. A higher level IB program could have just a single student while non-IB class sizes increase.

In discussing the differences in the IB and AP programs,
FCPS staff stresses the “rigorous” nature of the IB program.

That’s not being questioned.
Clearly an IB diploma program is a challenging program of studies.

FCPS staff also appears to blur the line between IB courses and an IB diploma program in an attempt to minimize serious differences between the IB and AP programs.

Few (5-8%) of FCPS IB high school graduates receive an IB Diploma.
An IB Certificate is not the same as receiving the IB Diploma.
The IB programme and IB Diploma program are NOT the same.

In 2007, only 45 out of over 350 South Lakes seniors received the actual IB Diploma.

In 2006, only 21 students received it.

In business, this would best be described as a poor return on investment.

Is this program the right one for our students?

The IB organization quotes reflect how important involvement is in instituting a successful program.
How can students and parents who are forced to go to an IB school be invested in this program in the manner described by the IBO?

FCPS has described the inability of smaller schools like South Lakes to offer more electives than larger schools.

Yet Falls Church, an AP school, with 137 less students than South Lakes offers a significantly greater number of electives than South Lakes including a vast difference in advanced Math courses. 

Could it be the limiting demands of IB are the problem,
not enrollment as claimed by FCPS staff?

Should students be forced into an IB school since IB schools are almost always magnet schools or programs?

We are concerned.

FCPS staff has painted the IB and AP programs as equally rigorous in nature, but the very structure and requirements of the IB program are self limiting for the school.

Has IB helped or hurt South Lakes High School’s enrollment?

Unfortunately, the numbers reflect an exodus of South Lakes enrollment during the years of the IB program.
Many of those opting out of this school appear to be placing into AP schools.
These students appear to be from the demographic the current redistricting is attempting to replace. 
They are largely non-free and reduced lunch students.

The obvious conclusion is that the IB program may be a large part of the problem rather than the solution of South Lakes continued loss of students.

It has been claimed by various sources that Reston has an “aging population that results in lower enrollment figures.” This is simply not true.

Please see:  Just the Facts
         Or      South Lakes Exodus Problem

These numbers are taken from FCPS and clearly show an ongoing loss of students from South Lakes.

FCPS should address the reasons for the loss of students who are within the current boundaries of South Lakes before uprooting students from their existing schools to force them into an IB program designed to be best implemented as a magnet program.

 

Leading Colleges' Transfer Policies for Standard Level (SL) IB Courses

Please note: very few colleges give credit for the Standard Level (SL) IB courses without the full IB Diploma.

University of Virginia
http://records.ureg.virginia.edu/content.php?catoid=11&navoid=
176&bc=1#the_inte_bacca
Virginia Tech
http://www.registrar.vt.edu/registration/tests_for_credit.php

College of William & Mary
http://www.wm.edu/admission/?id=3750

Randolph Macon
http://www.rmc.edu/Admissions/freshman/preparations.aspx

Univ of Mary Washington
http://www.umw.edu/admissions/undergraduate/ib_credit_information.php

Christopher Newport Univ.
http://admissions.cnu.edu/undergraduateAdmissions/applyAsAFreshman
/freshmanFAQs/creditTransferGuidelines.cfm#International_Baccalaureate

Johns Hopkins University:
http://www.jhu.edu/admis/apply/apib.html

Penn State
http://www.psu.edu/admissions/steps/understanding/ib.htm

North Carolina
http://www.admissions.unc.edu/academics/placement.htm

Delaware
http://admissions.udel.edu/apply/apibcredit.shtml

South Carolina
http://www.sc.edu/bulletin/Union/admissions.html

Clemson Univ.
http://www.clemson.edu/prospectivestudents/transfer/ibcredit.html

Rutgers
http://sebs.rutgers.edu/transfer/#AP

Georgia
http://www.uga.edu/honors/prospective/ap.html

Response to FCPS “Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate Fact Book”

 

Response to Jay Mathews’ recent article “Despite IB Growth, College Credit is Elusive”

We read Jay Mathews’ recent article “Despite IB Growth, College Credit is Elusive” with much interest. As we parents have been saying for years, and as Jay finally agrees, most colleges and universities have little regard for IB Standand Level courses and generally consider a two-year High Level IB course to be roughly the equivalent of a one-year AP course.  While we are delighted that Jay finally admitted that Universities do not recognize IB as being on the same level as AP, poor Jay is grabbing at every straw he can to explain why the Universities are wrong to do so.

Jay mentions the Fordham Institute report on IB and AP – something he does again and again every time this issue comes up. We read the entire 52-page report and are intrigued that the Fordham Institute, non-profit organization, believes all children grades K-12 deserve a quality education “at the school of their choice.” (a direct quote from the Fordham Institute website).

It is important to note that when the Fordham folks talk about IB in their report, they are assuming a student is pursuing the full IB Diploma and discuss the courses in that context.  3 of the 4 courses the academicians rated were IB strong-points – English, History, and Biology.  But these courses were not evaluated to determine whether they are college-level courses or match courses that colleges currently offer, as AP courses are.  They were evaluated on whether they reflected a gold standard for what graduating high school students should know - whether the materials were clear and well-organized, and whether there was sufficient intellectual challenge.  This comparison is “apples and oranges”, like everything that attempts to compare IB with AP.  But to humor Jay, let’s look at these courses with an eye toward college credit, since that was the main point of his article. 

The following are excerpts from the Fordham Report.

Regarding IB Math SL, the Report stated:
"if a student intends to take more math courses at the university level, it is not clear where that student should be placed. What university mathematics courses have as their prerequisites a small amount of calculus, but no exposure to complex numbers, almost no geometry, a spotty background in trigonometry, a smattering of linear algebra, and a good bit of statistics? Perhaps the answer ‘is more statistics courses’…In fairness to the IBO program, highly motivated students and those most apt to take math in college follow the more rigorous HL syllabus. While notably more complete and mathematically advanced, some gaps exist even at this level.”

In other words, the Math SL course is a statistics/algebra/calculus course.

For IB Language A (English -- described by the IB as "a pre-university course in Literature"):
"While the curriculum and assessments prescribed by the IBO achieve their stated goal of helping students develop a global perspective, a U.S. high school student could complete this course of study without reading the core of great American literature a troubling lacuna."

Colleges would expect an English literature class to study, well, classic English literature.

For IB World History:
"If only the course did not limit itself to the twentieth-century. In so doing, the IBO is not only potentially denying students the opportunity to learn about the important cultures and civilizations that gave rise to our modern world; it’s hampering their ability to appreciate the complexity of twentieth-century (and, now, twenty-first-century) problems."

And commenting on the IB "Americas" course option for history:
"In short, this option is neither detailed nor rich enough to serve as the sole course in U.S. history for American high school students."

Introductory level world history courses in college normally, at a minimum, span more than one hundred years.

As Jay has already reported, Fordham created a controversy in its evaluation of the IB SL Math course described above.  Professor Klein, from Cal State Northridge, gave the course a C- rating, with a C in content and a D in rigor.  But when the report was compiled, the overall rating was changed to a B-, with a B- in content and a C in rigor.  To quote Jay, “Klein's grade of C-plus for AP was not changed, but his grade of C-minus for IB got a big jump to a B-minus, meaning the report was saying that IB math was better than AP math, the opposite of what Klein had said.” Prof. Klein thus asked that his name be removed from the report.   I had to ask myself why the compilers would change Klein’s assessment and, upon rereading the entire report, realized it was strongly in favor of the FULL IB Diploma Program.

Jay claims IB students can just go and sit for AP exams.  After reading the course descriptions above, I can’t see how they could.  But if they could, why bother? Why not just take the AP course and its LESS EXPENSIVE exam in the first place?

[A question for Jay: If it is so easy to take AP exams as an IB student, then why did only four South Lakes students do so in 2005 and only three in 2006? ]

Jay writes, “George Mason University…treat one-year IB the same as AP.” That is misleading at best.  The only Standard Level courses listed by GMU for possible credit that South Lakes even offers are Music SL and Physics SL, both of which are TWO-year sequences.

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